Some of the most destructive things that happen to us in our relationships with narcissists happen in our conversations with them. Narcissists confuse us with circular conversations.
By using our verbal interactions with them against us, they manage somehow to both convince us and others that we are at fault for what happens in the relationship, and they manage to slowly take away our voices.
How do they manage to do both?
The basic mechanism is to deny that we have a right to a point of view at all.
It goes like this.
Perhaps you have questions or concerns and you are lied to or not given a straight answer. The narcissist will inevitably use multiple methods of deflection or you are told that the topic is off-limits
Or perhaps the narcissist says something inflammatory or picks a fight with you that youโll never be able to win. You said or did something he or she didnโt like or the narcissist even made something up out of thin air. He or she then refuses to engage in a rational discussion with you about it and nothing you say seems to matter. They have their minds made up and you are left with no way to defend yourself.
No matter who started the conversation, the narcissist doesnโt seem to care what you have to say and has no interest in coming to a mutually satisfying resolution.
Read 6 Diversion Tactics Used By Sociopaths, Narcissists and Psychopaths to Manipulate You Into Silence
Three very important things happen in these circular conversations:
- By using a variety of very unpleasant behaviors, narcissists punish us for either bringing up topics of conversation they donโt like or not ending conversations when they are finished discussing a topic. They make us feel high-maintenance or selfish for bringing up valid concerns.
- If we react to the way they behave in these circular conversations (e.g., the tactics they use to avoid engaging in a real discussion), it provides them with the ammunition they need to blame the problems in the relationships on us, further shaming us into silence and conditioning us not to speak up.
- Because our concerns are almost never addressed and we are almost never heard or validated, our self-esteem is eroded over time and our sense of humanity within the relationship begins to slip away.
For example, Shannon Thomas says in her book Healing from Hidden Abuse, โWhen a survivor tries to talk to a psychological abuser about their negative behaviors, a favorite maneuver of toxic people is to simply not replyโฆ When a survivor asks why they didnโt reply, the toxic person will spin the situation and say something like, โI am not going to argue with you.โ Can you see what just happened? The survivor was blamed for causing drama, or an argument, and the toxic person never addressed their behaviors.โ
In just this one interaction, the narcissist has punished the partner with silence, accused the partner of being the source of issues within the relationship, and ignored the original concerns that the partner had about what the narcissist had been doing.
Read 10 Warning Signs of the Manipulative Word Salad
As the relationships go on, partners of narcissists learn to walk a line that language divides.
Circular Conversations become the flashpoint for keeping the peace and yet adopting a pathological worldview in which we are to blame for causing problems by โtalking,โ yet the narcissist is not at fault for wrongdoingโ or speaking up and being further shamed, threatened and abused.
How Circular Conversations With Narcissists Unfold: An Example
The conversation below is one that my ex-boyfriend and I had over text messages during the time period when we were still in communication.
Studying exactly what these circular conversations look like can help to shed light on the tactics they use to try to avoid giving partners what they want in the conversations: answers, validation, acknowledgment, apologies, concessions, or promises.
Because of the different ways, he responded to what I would ask, it took over two hours to have this conversation. Still, itโs a relatively benign one in which he did not end up getting angry and using insults or refusing to discuss anything. He was not completely oppositional, but the conversation was no less exhausting, for reasons Iโll discuss below.
Me: Can I ask a question? A serious one that I really want to know the answer toโฆ Why do you still want to see me? What do you feel like you get out of it?
Him: Peace. Happiness. It makes me alive n happy. Why do u wanna see me and what do u get out of it? Ur the love of my life Kristen believe it or not.
Me: You say Iโm the love of your life and yet youโre so mean sometimes about petty thingsโฆ and you walk out or act unkind for such small reasons. How does that cherish our time together? How does that make you happy?
Him: I havenโt done that in a while.
Me: Well like three weeks. And weโve only seen each other like twice since the last time it did happen.
Read Why Narcissists Use Stonewalling As a Nasty and Powerful Defence Mechanism
Him: Yes cuz I donโt drive and u know that, so itโs hard to come see u more than once a week. U havenโt seen me either and havenโt answered my question. I can ask u the same thing. Why didnโt you come to see me?
Me: No you missed the point. You said you hadnโt done it in a while and my point was that there were only two opportunities that we have even been together for it to happen. What do you mean I havenโt seen you either?
Him: You have seen me 3 times in the past 2 weeks not 2.
Me: I donโt think so but it doesnโt matter. Two or three doesnโt change my point overall.
Him: Yes I get the point. Yes we havenโt had opportunities for me to walk out.
Me: Okay so why do you say so many things to tell me how much you love me and want to be around me but your actions donโt match it? Thatโs why I wanted to know what you get out of it. Thatโs all I was trying to say.
Him: Yeah. Your actions donโt either sometimes.
Me: No, but I never start anything though.
Him: Yeah. Can we not argue please? Iโm really tired tonight after all this training.
Me: Iโm fine with that.
Him: Okay thanks.
Read 5 Signs Someone Is A Conversational Narcissist
Me: To avoid an argument you shouldnโt change the subject so we donโt get off on tangents instead of just responding to what I said.
Him: Well I have answered my question why donโt you answer now? I have already admitted my actions donโt match so what else am I avoiding?
Me: Like I asked you a question and your response was โYour actions too sometimes.โ Okay, that can be discussed, but thatโs not what I asked. That is an example.
Him: I have already answered your questions you asked when you asked them the first time and now youโre asking me more and more and I donโt want to answer any more of your questions cuz Iโm really tired and still in the car trying to go home and shower and stuff. You asked 2 questions and I have answered them. And on the other hand you didnโt answer mine.ย
Me: You didnโt actually answer my question. I didnโt ask anything about admitting actions. My question is still the same because your answer didnโt fit with reality. What you said you got out of our time together didnโt make sense.
Him: Yes itโs the answer believe it or not
Me: I asked you why do you say so many things to tell me how much you love me and want to be around me but your actions donโt match it?
Him: Now I know you think I donโt love u or care about u ?
Me: In other words, Iโm asking how can you get peace and happiness out of being with me when the reality is that your actions make it hard for either of us to have peace or happinessโฆ why wouldnโt you avoid doing things that would put an end to those things or make me think you didnโt care? I donโt know what to think.
Him: OK I get itโฆ lol donโt think
Me: You get what? Why are you laughing?
Him: Cuz itโs funny how u donโt think I love u thatโs why
Me: I said I didnโt know what to think. Thereโs a difference. And no it isnโt funnyโฆ
Him: Okay
Me: Iโm dead serious when I tell you if you want people to know you love them you donโt hurt them unprovoked or make them feel unimportant.
Him: Yes, I did some f***ed up things and they werenโt right. Now Iโm sorry but what I feel for you is real or else Iโd be gone.
Me: Okay. Why do you still do them? Like lie and yell and say mean things? If you love me so much. Thatโs what I always wanted to know.
Read The Female Facade: How Women Narcissists Can Be Equally Dangerous
Him: Yelling and saying mean things when Iโm drunkโฆ you have done things drunk too.
Me: Please donโt change the subject. And anyway yes sometimes you do them when youโre drunk but sometimes not.
Him: Iโm changing no subject.
Me: It isnโt ever right of me to retaliate but I donโt just start things.
Him: Look did I only do bad things to you? We arenโt together anymore and I think about the good times only. Thatโs why I sent you that song last night but I think you just donโt think I ever did anything good.
Me: Yes I do. I wouldnโt be here if you hadnโt. Who would stick around just for someone to mistreat them? Itโs the fact that you also treated me well that keeps me here. So the fact that there was both makes it so confusing and thatโs what Iโm trying to talk to you about.
Him: Well I think I did more for you than any other girlfriend I had.
Me: Yes I believe that. Thatโs what your friends and some of your exes told me too. Maybe you donโt know why you did what you did. Maybe because you never trusted me and still donโt.
Him: My past thatโs why. Can we stop arguing?
[I accepted this statement from him that the reasons why his actions and words didnโt match were because he had a past that led him not to trust people, and after this, he changed the subject to focus on me and asked me again what I got out of seeing him. There was no more discussion about his words and actions not matching up.]
Conversations From Hell
Jackson MacKenzie describes conversations in his book Psychopath Free as one way that narcissists erode the identities of their partners by conditioning them that they are not allowed to speak about the behaviour of the narcissists without grave repercussions and if they want the relationship to continue.
He calls it โword salad,โ and lists the following nine warning signs that youโre in one of these dialogues. Almost all of these are present in just this one conversation I used as an example above.
1. Circular Conversations.
You feel as if youโve resolved something in the conversation, and then a few minutes later youโre talking about it again as if the narcissist didnโt hear any of the arguments you made. They argue their own same points again and again as if theyโre in their own reality where they canโt hear you or your words donโt register. These circular conversations devastate you.
2. Bringing Up Your Past Wrongdoings and Ignoring Their Own.
If you mention any of their bad behaviour, they will bring up something you have done to distract you and put you on the defensive.
3. Condescending and Patronizing Tone.
They will remain calm during the conversation, however, you will get increasingly confused and bewildered as they refuse to entertain your words or acknowledge what youโre saying. When you react, they respond as if youโre being unreasonable and use your reaction against you as an escalation.
Read The Female Facade: How Women Narcissists Can Be Equally Dangerous
4. Accusing You of Doing Things That They Themselves Are Doing.
As the conversation starts to escalate, the narcissist will start to project their bad behavior onto you.
5. Multiple Personas
The narcissist will use a variety of tactics and show a variety of sides. You may see anger and insults, tenderness, or they may play the victim card. All of these tactics, regardless of whether they are friendly, neutral or hostile, are all serving the interests of the narcissist, even if the narcissist is appearing conciliatory.
Read 15 Things Narcissists Donโt Do
6. The Eternal Victim
The narcissist will often offer reasons for their behavior that lead back to horrible treatment in their own pasts.
7. You Begin Explaining Basic Human Emotions
You may find yourself having to describe how doing the things they have done hurt you and why, and the basic foundations of a relationship like respect and honesty. You think if you can communicate these things, they will stop.
8. Excuses
The narcissist almost always blames others for the things they do or makes other excuses. They may blame alcohol, their youth, unfair or biased treatment from others, or other reasons, but they will not and cannot just own up to what they have done, express genuine remorse and correct course.
Read Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome: 10 Signs Youโve Experienced Narcissistic Abuse
9. โWhat in the World Just Happened?โ
You leave the circular conversations feeling drained and as if nothing was accomplished, or as if you accepted a mediocre answer or you are being diminished as the time goes on because you canโt seem to get anything resolved.
In the conversation above, I was so relieved to get anything from him that sounded like an answer to my question after over two hours of texting back and forth and all of the deflection in his responses, that I accepted it.
Now, looking back at the conversation, I can see how what Iโd said to him just prior was leading. I had tipped him off with something to say that would pacify me. Iโm not even totally sure he was providing it as a response to what I asked or just saw an opportunity to add onto what I was saying and make an empathy grab.
I was so worn out from the conversation and worried that at any moment he would explode into rage or just stop talking to me altogether, that I seized on words that felt like he was finally giving me a response to what I had asked after all that time, and I didnโt even bother digging any deeper into it as he moved the conversation onto other topics.
This was a frequent occurrence.
Then I would wonder why a few days later a conversation didnโt feel settled. Because it wasnโt.
Why Narcissists Never Give You What You Want in Circular Conversations
H.G. Tudor, a self-aware narcissist who writes about relationships from a narcissistโs point of view, explains how narcissists think about these conversations differently than we do in his article, โWhy Are the Arguments Never Resolved?โ
When we as non-narcissists have these conversations about events with narcissists, we are attempting to align our narratives with them to settle on a version of reality that mirrors what we have experienced.
For example, we may wish to have the narcissist acknowledge something or apologize or stop doing something. This is what happens when two non-narcissists have conversationsโthey are attempting to come to an agreement.
โThe victim does not know that they are in a romantic entanglement with a narcissistโฆ Both have entirely different aims,โ Tudor says.
Read This Is Why You Should Stop Wasting Time Arguing With Narcissistic People
Narcissists have no interest in coming to a resolution that benefits both people, because:
1) It would be giving up superiority and control to admit a wrong.
2) They canโt openly admit their cruel behavior was executed without any thoughts about how it would hurt us or even that it was intentionally done to hurt us because it doesnโt benefit them to show us their remorselessness.
3)They gain narcissistic supply from our confusion and pain.
If they started the argument to gain supplyโ perhaps by accusing you of something that didnโt happenโwhen they have had enough, they will end it abruptly by a change of subject or something to that effect.
If you asked a question, such as in the conversation above, the narcissist will use deflection tactics hoping that you will end the conversation. Those tactics often wonโt work because they donโt align with your reality or achieve the goals of the conversation you set out to achieve. The narcissist is not agreeing to anything youโre saying or asking, and instead, is having crazymaking verbal interactions with you.
โEven when the narcissistโs aims are achieved and he halts the manipulation, the victim still understandably believing the matter to be unresolved, keeps going. This causes the narcissist to respond to the challenge and then the narcissist sees the victim as maintaining an argument unnecessarily,โ Tudor says.
Narcissists, not interested in our goals as non-narcissists within the conversation, will then find a way to end it, usually by stonewalling or even leaving.
Circular Conversations with narcissists are like being in a maze where you try to stay on the right path toward the exit, however, the narcissist constantly drags you down one more dead-end hoping youโll get lost and give up.
Red Flags Revisited: A Look at How They Use Language to Manipulate
You canโt get what you need out of conversations with narcissists, and this fact is an overt, non-ambiguous cornerstone of how they manipulate.
This is why seven out of the first eleven Red Flags of Toxic Peopleย as also identified by Jackson Mackenzie in Psychopath Freeย and popularly re-distributed online are centred around the deflection techniques they use in circular conversations with them.
1. Gaslighting and Crazymaking.
โThey blatantly deny their own manipulative behavior and ignore evidence when confronted with it. They become dismissive and critical if you attempt to disprove their fabrications with facts. Instead of them actually addressing their inappropriate behavior, somehow it always becomes your fault for being โsensitiveโ and โcrazy.โ Toxic people condition you to believe that the problem isnโt the abuse itself, but instead your reactions to their abuse.โ
Read The Female Facade: How Women Narcissists Can Be Equally Dangerous
2. Cannot Put Themselves in Your Shoes or Anyone Elseโs For That Matter.
โYou find yourself desperately trying to explain how they might feel if you were treating them this way, and they just stare at you blankly. You slowly learn not to communicate your feelings with them, because youโre usually met with silence or annoyance.โ
3. Pathological Lying and Excuses.
โThere is always an excuse for everything, even things that donโt require excusing. They make up lies faster than you can question them. They constantly blame othersโit is never their fault. They spend more time rationalizing their behavior than improving it. Even when caught in a lie, they express no remorse or embarrassment. Oftentimes, it almost seems as if they wanted you to catch them.โ
4. Focuses on Your Mistakes and Ignores Your Own.
โIf theyโre two hours late, donโt forget that you were once five minutes late to your first date. If you point out their inappropriate behaviour, they will always be quick to turn the conversation back on you. You might begin to adopt perfectionistic qualities, very aware that any mistake can and will be used against you.โ
Read 30 Red Flags of Manipulative People
5. You Find Yourself Explaining the Basic Elements of Human Respect to a Full-Grown Man or Woman.
โNormal people understand fundamental concepts like honesty and kindness. Psychopaths often appear to be childlike and innocent, but donโt let this mask fool you. No adult should need to be told how he or she is making other people feel.โ
6. Accuses You of Feeling Emotions That They Are Intentionally Provoking.
โThey call you jealous after blatantly flirting with an exโoften done over social networking for the entire world to see. They call you needy after intentionally ignoring you for days on end. They use your manufactured reactions to garner sympathy from other targets, trying to prove how โhystericalโ youโve become. You probably once considered yourself to be an exceptionally easygoing person, but an encounter with a psychopath will (temporarily) turn that notion upside down.โ
Read 5 Sneaky Ways A Narcissist Uses a DARVO Defense to Project Himself As A Victim
7. You Fear That Any Fight Could Be Your Last.
โNormal couples argue to resolve issues, but psychopaths make it clear that negative conversations will jeopardize the relationship, especially ones regarding their behaviour. Any of your attempts to improve communication will typically result in the silent treatment. You apologize and forgive quickly, otherwise, you know theyโll lose interest in you.โ
These circular conversations and techniques they use to avoid reaching a resolution with you provide the clues that tell you that they do not care about your feelings in the conversation. They are not empathetic to your point of view or what you need to get out of the conversation in order to feel heard or understood.
They should tell you exactly who you are dealing with: someone whose intentions in those circular conversations โand their underlying intentions overallโ are not aligned with yours.
Written by Kristen Milstead Originally appeared on FairyTaleShadows.com Printed with Permission
Leave a Reply